After our review of an standard bar for different kites from Kite Attitude the discussion if a low “V” (split point of the power lines) can be used is still alive and under lots of debate.
A lot of people would save money if they can use a standard bar instead of buying the original one from the brand of the kite. For example if you already own a bar from a different brand or if you just can buy (and/or prefer) another brand means you save easily a couple of hundred Euro’s. Assuming this standard bar has the same amount of lines, same length, same width and more or less the same safety the only question which remains is; does it really need to have the same height of the split point as it would have had on the original bar from the brand of the kite?
North (we picked North since they have one of the highest split points on all their recent bars from at least 5 meter to the bar) claims it tests and designs the kites each year to work best with their bar with quite an extremely high split point. There must be a reason they do that, so we asked North about it. The designers claim that their 4 line kites (Neo and Dice for example) “will get more slack on the lines when used with a low V. This slack is something the Dice and Neo is not designed at”. Which is a bit unsatisfying answer to our opinion.
We know of a few kiters both deliberately take a different split point for their kite but on the other hand also ones that got into serious issues dealing with a low V bar on a North kite. It would be interesting to know both sides of the story,
Kite Attitude, represented by Donatien Rogier, is convinced the height of the split point is of no issue. So to our poll he would answer Yes, no problem. He even came up with a video with someone on a Dice with his standard (low V) Attitude bar, which was quite happy and riding a Dice without any problem. He also pointed out that “…the French “best tricks” champion, just won the Martinique Championship with the universal Attitude FreeStyle bar on a 15 m2 North Juice. The Juice is considered to be the big version of the Dice.” He argues. For us the North Juice indeed is -normally- used with a North (high V) bar, but if whether it is a big Dice remains questionable.
A closer look to the description on the North wake-style bar shows a lower V is preferred for more advanced tricks generating more power release delay, more slack, more pop and a delay in steering that makes doing doubles or holding grabs much easier and un-matched by the stock Trust Bar. Which is a clear hunch that changing the height gives a different kite (feel).
When looking this issue up at several forum topics (for example on Seabreeze or kiteforum) you will soon discover their is loads of discussions going on with a wide mix of opinions on the amount of difference. Both stacked with theoretical and practical knowledge. The dozens of posts just makes things blurry even more. What to believe? How much difference do you actually notice when kiting?
We are in doubt about mixing up kites designed for a high V with a bar with a low V (or vice versa). Rather be safe than sorry, and in case you use a different split point bar first test it. Of course not everybody is able to test this first, so that is why we let everybody who considers to have some experience vote on it and let the majority of votes tell us the answer to one of the most extreme examples we know of; a low V on a (recent) North Dice. Hopefully this will give us an idea if this issue we raised is supported by a majority of our readers.
I have both a Bandit 9m and 12m, and fly them with low V.
I have never noticed any problem with the 9m.
Regarding the 12m: No problem on a medium/high end, while it stalls on a low end but that’s because the back lines are two short (low V is a shortcut for the lines, they reach the bar on a straight line so they are less tight than on a high V – hence the front lines are too slack). If I put the back lines on the last (longer) knot it solves the problem
I can totally agree with yuvy that the low V gives you the feeling of more power (better low end). When I tried a friend’s F-One Bandit with the new Linx Bar (low V setting) was much better performing in light wind and for freestyle tricks.
With the Bandit similar to the Dice the brand claims that it performs better with the high V but in my opinion it’s the opposite! At high end use maybe… for sure it’s nice to have less bar pressure in those conditions!
Not to mention when teaching beginners to steer the kite the low V helps them with better feedback and much more direct handling.
And let me share my thoughts about backstalling as well: I like to keep the bar at the lowest position as possible for better edging/ upwind therefore I always put the back lines on the kite lightest setting (longest) whenever possible or have an extra knot on the center lines attachment (pigtail) to have my trim line at the max power setting and never had any issues with backstalling the kite. (same results on pulling the trim strap 5cm in)
Liquid force just introduced the same variable splitter as Duotone on their new bar. They claim you can adjust the kite feeling. You should contact Julien, the designer and get to the bottom of it…
thanks for the useful comment!
We Test Kites
I`m a clickbar user and find this difference:-
High V = Faster turning but less Power. (Better High End)
Low V = Slower turning but More Power. (Better Low End)
(Agree with the backstall mentioned with low V on Dice)
Kites tried on:
North Dice 12M
CrazyFly Tango 9M
Ziankite Hantu V3 9M
Yes, you are right and we already asked North about it. They claimed those riders do it “to be outstanding”. All (four lines) North kites are designed for a high V. From the sound of the answers we got it, North wasn’t happy the riders do it in the official video’s.
Thanks anyway for pointing it out and what you say you have felt is recognized!
We Test Kites
only one thing…
I have seen both airton cozzolino and matchu lopez use mainly the low v with click bar and kite neo. So in contradiction towards the factory indications. And if you notice, for example, in the videos of the north video academy, Airton always has the low V. I tried and the only sensations I felt are: that the kite seems more powerful, but seems to go in back stall more easily
Very welcome attribution to the discussion!
We Test Kites
I give my opinion beacuse i was forced to fly North bar 4 lines (so highest V) and Best Extract bar (Len10 version of the Best RP bar, 4 line) on both brand kite (Ts in all the sizes for Best, Dice and Neo for north) due to my gf quever for more then 1 year.
So this is how it work for me:
If u use a low V on an ibrid C-shape kite (the low V on the Dice various year -14, 16, 17, but all small size – max 9m) you will move it MUCH more to his C side – delay, slack, havyness on the bar. But it will stall more in its low end.
I would say that NKB answared like that because of 2 reson…
Marketing (the feeling really come close to a Vegas, but really close) and durability of the kite (it will bend, just a bit, but its shape is different while in the air with good wind).
An option is to adjust the kite to light pressure bar setting, but will not change that much, you will feel the kite a bit changed anyway.
If u use a high V bar on a kite that is designed for low V (north bar on Best Ts for exemple) it will slow down a lot the kite steering and overall it will not respond quick and precise like with its bar – i would define it like something connected with the distribution of the bar pressure while the kite travel in the windwindow: when is close to zenit is way lighter then normal, then when the kite get lower is start to feel like is normal bar.
And here is where you can trick it: adjust the backline 2\3 knot (but you will lose a bit of low end, or better, it will tend to stall more).
Good wind to everybody!
I have flown many kites with a high-v bar and noticed absolutely no difference in performance whatsoever vs. a regular 4-line bar. I am sure there are cork-sniffers who would disagree though, after all this is kiteboarding.
Much appreciated feed back, many thanks.
We Test Kites
I use an old best bar with a newer neo. The lower V doesn’t seem to cause problems for me but I did find that the kite has way less depower than any of the kahoonas I came from. This could be kite specific and I know I know the kahoona has a lot of depower on tap due to the design (this is a mk2 and mk4 I ride). The neo is super responsive and flies very well in low wind conditions. I would rather be on my 12m kahoona than the 10m neo in high (25knt+) wind. I have ended up with a smaller kite for low wind days- a little bit backwards now. The neo doesn’t really sit well with me but that could be due to personal preference and spending soo long on the kahoona.
I think you are right!
We Test Kites
on clickbar you can move split point, so I don’t think it would be so difficult to make precise setting with extensions ))
at least it should be much better than on any other bar with extensions
Hi Alexander, in a certain wat you are right. North actualley looks at it this wat. So good that you point this out.
But there is another side to it; eveyone using extensions Will put Them at the end of the lines, which makes thing opposite of what you explained. Even the North click bar has it like that.
In short; there is no official way how to “calculate” the distance of the V.
Thanks for contributing !
We Test Kites
I’m not sure, that you right in the way you calculate split point )))
and I’ve cheked this
I have Dice 2016 12m and 8m
both with 4 lines 24m bars
and I’ve compared bars to 22m
and realized, that split point shold be calculated not from bar, but from kite )))
thanks for the contribution!
We Test Kites
ps we know of some people that copied the little bridle/pully system from the new Torch on his Vegas…It seems not to difficult to replicate it by hand!
I have used the Flexifoil Hadlow Pro 2012 bar on the Naish Torch 2014 10m. Flexifoil bar has a low-V just above the depower strap. The Torch bat used to have a V 13m above the bar. I had no problems with this difference in the V-split. Only thing to get right was the tension on the fift. More tension made the kite more open, wider turning, more hangtime but slower handling. Less tension on the fift made the kite faster turning with more pull in turns. In the absolute high-end the kite really needs a good tension on the fift. With to little tension the wingtips folded towards centerline in the gusts. More tension on the fift helped solving this problem. Now I have the 2017 Torch wich got a low-V just like the Hadlow Pro. If even got the pully (ESP) the Hadlow Pro had back then. So I guess it does not make that much of a difference.